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I'm sitting in a chair,
you know, like this.
2
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I can't move this way,
I can't move this way.
3
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I've got to stay totally in control,
4
00:00:16,141 --> 00:00:19,019
hit this emotion and lock on
this expression, you know.
5
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For me, the digital revolution,
it's the best thing that happened to film
6
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in a hundred years.
I mean, I would never go back.
7
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I embrace the new tools.
8
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What you can do with a digital image
is fantastic.
9
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You know, I couldn't wait
to get rid of film.
10
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When ILM start to make
that transition
11
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towards digital tools,
it was really all discovery,
12
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an invention at its purest form.
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A lot of what we were doing,
14
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we were doing for the first time,
it was the Wild West.
15
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"What if we do this?"
"Okay, let's try that."
16
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Nobody knew what digital could do.
17
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We had to do every little step of the way
to try to build these systems.
18
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But there was a lot of
groaning and moaning.
19
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People were extremely resistant
to making that change.
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I mean, they called it "the dark side."
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I just told them, you can do it.
You know, you can do it. Come on.
22
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It was one of
the toughest times.
23
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It was also one of most exciting times,
24
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and I was very determined to make it work.
25
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It's always been easy
for me to make a change
26
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if I think it's going to lead
to something better.
27
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It's happening a thousand times faster
than we ever anticipated,
28
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and we are running as fast as we can
to try and keep up.
29
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- This is cold, this is night.
- This is Wales.
30
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- This is the movies.
- Especially, Willow.
31
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You need Willow.
32
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- Yeah. This is Willow.
- Action!
33
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Cut!
34
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I am not a techie person.
Never have been.
35
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And so when Willow came along,
it was a chance to really go to school,
36
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to really push myself
and be exposed to the culture
37
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at ILM for a couple of years.
38
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I found it just like talking
to a great screenwriter, great composer.
39
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These were creative conversations.
They gave me the menu of possibilities.
40
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Like matte paintings, shooting with
the little Brownies on oversized sets...
41
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They had the motion control camera going
and they had the models.
42
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It was fantastic.
43
00:03:30,668 --> 00:03:35,840
The one thing that really was
a little bit outside the box.
44
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There's this transformation of Fin Raziel,
who is this good sorceress.
45
00:03:40,220 --> 00:03:44,641
She'd been turned into a goat,
and she had to transform to an ostrich,
46
00:03:44,724 --> 00:03:50,271
a turtle, a tiger, and finally back
to a 75-year-old white-haired lady.
47
00:03:50,355 --> 00:03:53,483
I said, yeah, Rick Baker's work
on Werewolf of London.
48
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That's how I think
we should do this, right?
49
00:03:57,445 --> 00:04:00,657
All prosthetics and a series of cuts.
50
00:04:01,574 --> 00:04:03,826
I always thought
those were kind of cheats.
51
00:04:03,910 --> 00:04:06,120
They're fine for action movies.
52
00:04:06,204 --> 00:04:08,539
But this is not
an action sequence, really.
53
00:04:08,623 --> 00:04:11,084
I thought this was more
of a wondrous sequence.
54
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,587
I thought maybe we could
try computer graphics.
55
00:04:15,296 --> 00:04:18,049
He said, "Well,
what if it was all one shot?"
56
00:04:18,132 --> 00:04:21,803
I said, "That would be a hell of a puppet.
I don't know how you build..."
57
00:04:21,886 --> 00:04:24,389
He said, "No, no, no.
It would be in the computer."
58
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I said...
59
00:04:26,599 --> 00:04:29,477
George explained to me that
he had launched Dennis
60
00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,771
in this direction
to explore what computers
61
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could actually mean to making movies.
62
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And I, you know, I didn't want to sound
63
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like too big of a moron,
so I didn't press it too much.
64
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But I was really dubious.
65
00:04:41,739 --> 00:04:44,659
Back then, to be able to do
something with computer graphics
66
00:04:44,742 --> 00:04:48,162
was just foreign to our minds,
including mine, too.
67
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But I knew there was a lot
of talent working here
68
00:04:53,543 --> 00:04:57,672
and a lot of people you can call upon
if you have a problem to try to help
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00:04:57,755 --> 00:04:59,882
solve it, you know,
a new idea, fresh idea.
70
00:04:59,966 --> 00:05:04,220
And John Knoll said, "You know,
someone has done this with a still photo",
71
00:05:04,304 --> 00:05:09,475
"the shape or whatever the image is
sort of moves into a new shape,"
72
00:05:09,559 --> 00:05:11,144
"and you can see that other shape."
73
00:05:11,227 --> 00:05:13,980
I said, "That's interesting,
could we... Let's try that."
74
00:05:14,063 --> 00:05:16,024
So I ran it to the CG department,
75
00:05:16,149 --> 00:05:20,653
Doug Smythe tried it on a still,
and it was incredibly promising.
76
00:05:21,487 --> 00:05:25,241
The computer was calibrating all the
in-between moves between two positions.
77
00:05:26,909 --> 00:05:28,703
It was entirely experimental.
78
00:05:28,786 --> 00:05:31,706
Dennis Muren kept apologizing for it.
Like, this may not work.
79
00:05:31,789 --> 00:05:34,208
And for this effect to work,
80
00:05:34,292 --> 00:05:39,213
you also got to shoot film
to be able to put in there first.
81
00:05:40,173 --> 00:05:42,842
Those are all puppets
that had to be made by people.
82
00:05:44,260 --> 00:05:46,220
The Willow transformation sequence,
83
00:05:46,304 --> 00:05:49,599
that was my first experience
in the Model Shop at ILM.
84
00:05:50,892 --> 00:05:54,187
I'm a kid from Kansas City, Missouri,
and elementary school
85
00:05:54,270 --> 00:05:57,607
was when I realized
that art was the great escape.
86
00:05:57,982 --> 00:06:01,944
I knew that there were beautiful things
and exciting things in the world,
87
00:06:02,028 --> 00:06:06,366
but they weren't coming to Kansas City,
that I could see.
88
00:06:07,241 --> 00:06:10,787
My grandmother was a painter.
She loved art.
89
00:06:12,330 --> 00:06:14,624
To be in my grandmother's house
in her studio
90
00:06:14,707 --> 00:06:16,459
and sit with her and paint with her,
91
00:06:17,001 --> 00:06:19,379
that was my refuge as a child.
92
00:06:21,339 --> 00:06:24,008
You can truly just disappear.
93
00:06:25,093 --> 00:06:28,596
My mother used to drop me off
at the Gallery of Art on weekends,
94
00:06:28,679 --> 00:06:31,265
and I would spend the day walking about.
95
00:06:32,767 --> 00:06:35,770
The de Koonings and things
that I couldn't comprehend...
96
00:06:36,479 --> 00:06:38,564
Terrifying modern art.
97
00:06:40,858 --> 00:06:43,069
But I was so drawn to it, I had a sense
98
00:06:43,152 --> 00:06:47,615
that I needed to find a job
that would give me that feeling.
99
00:06:49,575 --> 00:06:53,079
I ended up settling on London,
I gravitated to the theater.
100
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I'd go there at night
and watch the rehearsals.
101
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I'd go in the daytime
and make props and costumes.
102
00:07:00,670 --> 00:07:04,799
And then I was able to work on Labyrinth
with Jim Henson's company.
103
00:07:08,010 --> 00:07:10,096
And I had a little area of expertise,
104
00:07:10,179 --> 00:07:13,182
which was furry creatures
in models and miniatures.
105
00:07:16,269 --> 00:07:18,896
George Lucas came
and looked around the set,
106
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and I was requested to come over
and work on the animals
107
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that changed from one to the other
when Willow's using the wand.
108
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When I arrived, we had to create a goat
and had to match the goat on the set.
109
00:07:39,834 --> 00:07:42,753
But also had to be flexible
and had to have a neck
110
00:07:42,837 --> 00:07:46,799
that would stretch
and match into the ostrich.
111
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Its eyes opened and closed.
112
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Then the peacock fan was built on
an umbrella that would open mechanically.
113
00:07:56,976 --> 00:07:59,770
It all collapsed down,
and then I made a turtle.
114
00:08:00,771 --> 00:08:03,858
Its feet grew out, became covered in fur
115
00:08:03,941 --> 00:08:07,320
that looked like a tiger,
and we had an interim stage
116
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to make prosthetic makeup
for a woman, part tiger,
117
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and we knew that
the computer graphic department
118
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was going to take these initial stages
and blend them from one to the next.
119
00:08:22,418 --> 00:08:28,007
But I had no idea that this was going to
be a seminal moment in computer graphics.
120
00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:32,637
Willow, believe in the words.
121
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Concentrate.
122
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Oh, no!
123
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It kinda really blew me away. I bought it.
124
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I saw it happen.
125
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Willow!
126
00:08:59,705 --> 00:09:01,290
Locktwarr danalora...
127
00:09:02,250 --> 00:09:04,961
I said, "I don't know
how you're doing it,"
128
00:09:05,044 --> 00:09:08,839
"but you know what, in the world
of need to know..."
129
00:09:08,923 --> 00:09:10,883
"I guess I don't."
130
00:09:11,884 --> 00:09:14,303
We coined the word "morf"
for doing this,
131
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morfing from one shape into another.
132
00:09:18,015 --> 00:09:21,185
Everybody else since
has been spelling at M-O-R-P-H,
133
00:09:21,269 --> 00:09:22,353
and they're all wrong.
134
00:09:22,436 --> 00:09:25,439
Even the dictionary's wrong.
It's actually M-O-R-F.
135
00:09:25,523 --> 00:09:27,525
At least our version of it is.
136
00:09:38,911 --> 00:09:44,667
All the money that went into slimin',
Nunzio, the Statue of Liberty.
137
00:09:45,710 --> 00:09:49,547
Something's gotta give.
This stuff is really, really expensive.
138
00:09:51,215 --> 00:09:54,176
The effects business
is a tough business to stay in.
139
00:09:54,260 --> 00:09:56,887
So many companies
have fallen by the wayside.
140
00:09:57,305 --> 00:10:03,019
And when I arrived at ILM in the mid-'80s,
Roger Rabbit was in production,
141
00:10:04,687 --> 00:10:06,105
Empire of the Sun,
142
00:10:09,317 --> 00:10:10,318
and Willow.
143
00:10:11,485 --> 00:10:15,781
Moving into the digital age
happened much more quickly
144
00:10:15,865 --> 00:10:18,868
at ILM than they did
anywhere else in the industry.
145
00:10:19,619 --> 00:10:21,787
I'm sure it always moved
too slowly for George.
146
00:10:22,496 --> 00:10:26,167
He just intuitively knew
"We can do that this way,"
147
00:10:26,250 --> 00:10:28,085
and then, "I just got to find the people"
148
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"who will figure out
how to make it happen."
149
00:10:30,963 --> 00:10:33,591
There is no question
that once I got welcomed
150
00:10:33,674 --> 00:10:38,512
into the team here,
I wanted to look around
151
00:10:38,596 --> 00:10:41,474
and try my hand at everything
that I could.
152
00:10:42,725 --> 00:10:45,603
I got to know
the computer graphic artists.
153
00:10:45,686 --> 00:10:47,104
They were visionary.
154
00:10:47,188 --> 00:10:49,815
And what they were doing
was fascinating to me.
155
00:10:49,899 --> 00:10:53,152
But really not many people
in the shop were as interested.
156
00:10:56,197 --> 00:10:58,532
In the Model Shop,
we would build big things.
157
00:10:58,616 --> 00:11:03,162
You'd have a Statue of Liberty
for Ghostbusters, sets and sculpture
158
00:11:03,245 --> 00:11:05,289
going on, and mold-making.
159
00:11:05,373 --> 00:11:08,959
Everyone could see who was doing
the important, interesting work.
160
00:11:13,381 --> 00:11:16,634
And then going into a building
where it was all dark
161
00:11:16,717 --> 00:11:18,511
and visually, they were all equal.
162
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I actually found that kind of wonderful.
163
00:11:23,516 --> 00:11:26,519
There wasn't a lot of ego
in doing that work.
164
00:11:26,602 --> 00:11:30,189
It was sort of more pure in a way
where the result was everything.
165
00:11:30,272 --> 00:11:31,732
The render was everything.
166
00:11:34,193 --> 00:11:39,031
And then came the team
that really created the upheaval.
167
00:11:45,121 --> 00:11:48,666
I would blast Beethoven.
So much torment in this sound.
168
00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:52,628
I wasn't even listening to music,
I was listening to a story.
169
00:11:55,339 --> 00:11:58,884
He had jeans that rolled up,
engineer boots, tight T-shirt,
170
00:11:58,968 --> 00:12:00,302
like a rockabilly a little bit.
171
00:12:00,386 --> 00:12:03,013
And I remember thinking,
"Who the hell is this guy?"
172
00:12:03,806 --> 00:12:06,767
Me, I looked like I could scrub
the bathtub with my head.
173
00:12:06,851 --> 00:12:09,937
Mark Dippé, long-haired,
high-end math guy.
174
00:12:10,938 --> 00:12:12,690
They threw us into an office together.
175
00:12:17,111 --> 00:12:19,655
It was soundproof, so I could do
whatever the hell I wanted.
176
00:12:20,698 --> 00:12:22,158
I had this speaker system set up.
177
00:12:28,330 --> 00:12:31,751
Spaz comes in and he hears it
and he goes, "Alice Cooper!"
178
00:12:31,834 --> 00:12:34,837
"That's my favorite album.
Might be the first album I ever bought."
179
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:36,672
And I go, "Are you kidding me?"
180
00:12:36,797 --> 00:12:40,134
He goes, "It's the first album
I ever bought," and so that was it.
181
00:12:41,135 --> 00:12:42,178
We hit it off.
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00:12:45,347 --> 00:12:47,600
What was so wonderful
about those guys
183
00:12:47,683 --> 00:12:52,313
was that they were the antithesis
to this sort of geeky computer nerd.
184
00:12:52,396 --> 00:12:53,773
They were real characters.
185
00:12:55,399 --> 00:12:57,359
Steve was a big sort of
outgoing guy,
186
00:12:57,443 --> 00:13:01,447
the hockey player from Canada,
and Mark was from Alaska.
187
00:13:04,617 --> 00:13:07,953
Alaska, when I was a kid,
I think of it as, like, hippies with guns.
188
00:13:08,037 --> 00:13:09,330
A lot of contradictions.
189
00:13:09,413 --> 00:13:12,708
Everyone can kind of do everything,
build your own house, drive tractors,
190
00:13:12,792 --> 00:13:15,127
shoot guns, clean animals,
get your own meat.
191
00:13:15,211 --> 00:13:17,296
But my whole thing was
I got to get out of here.
192
00:13:20,716 --> 00:13:22,510
I really had this dream
of getting involved
193
00:13:22,593 --> 00:13:24,261
in sort of more creative pursuits.
194
00:13:27,139 --> 00:13:29,975
I grew up
in kind of a grid of Toronto.
195
00:13:30,059 --> 00:13:33,145
In that system, they wanted you to follow
the traditional path.
196
00:13:33,813 --> 00:13:36,357
And so I was watching cartoons
and dreaming.
197
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,820
We all played hockey.
That's what Canadians do.
198
00:13:44,698 --> 00:13:47,535
My dad was with IBM,
so I was messing around with computers
199
00:13:47,618 --> 00:13:50,329
but I was more fascinated
with how televisions worked,
200
00:13:50,412 --> 00:13:52,039
pulling them apart, for real.
201
00:13:53,999 --> 00:13:55,334
Learning about high voltage.
202
00:13:56,126 --> 00:13:58,462
There was a camp north of Toronto.
203
00:13:58,546 --> 00:14:01,507
They had a gun range,
I jumped on at age 10.
204
00:14:01,590 --> 00:14:05,386
I didn't want to kill anybody, right?
I was just more interested in mechanism.
205
00:14:08,806 --> 00:14:10,558
Became pretty proficient at that time.
206
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,570
I was never in the army.
I was in a special group, that's all.
207
00:14:26,407 --> 00:14:27,491
Not really. No.
208
00:14:28,075 --> 00:14:31,245
Something switched in my brain
at about 18 or 19.
209
00:14:32,079 --> 00:14:33,747
The people I was hanging out with,
210
00:14:33,831 --> 00:14:35,791
they were just talking
about killing people.
211
00:14:35,875 --> 00:14:38,794
Whether it was hockey
or talking about guns,
212
00:14:39,295 --> 00:14:41,714
and I didn't want to do that.
You know, I like life.
213
00:14:42,882 --> 00:14:46,135
I decided I have to get out of here,
and I'm not going to get out of here
214
00:14:46,218 --> 00:14:48,220
by hitchhiking down to the lower 48.
215
00:14:48,304 --> 00:14:49,847
I've got to go to school.
216
00:14:49,930 --> 00:14:54,059
When I went to college, in those days,
computer science was really pretty new.
217
00:14:54,143 --> 00:14:56,145
Computers were still kind of primitive.
218
00:14:56,228 --> 00:14:59,607
And so, while I was studying
computer science, I also took art classes,
219
00:14:59,690 --> 00:15:02,651
and I learned a lot about the art of film.
220
00:15:03,444 --> 00:15:05,070
I was like a sponge, really.
221
00:15:06,113 --> 00:15:08,949
My interest was to make images
with computers
222
00:15:09,033 --> 00:15:11,118
that didn't require the physical reality.
223
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:16,123
I was really enamored
with how things moved,
224
00:15:16,206 --> 00:15:18,459
drawing on paper
and then flipping the paper
225
00:15:18,584 --> 00:15:20,669
and making it move,
which is fascinating to me.
226
00:15:21,629 --> 00:15:24,381
So I went to an animation college.
227
00:15:24,924 --> 00:15:26,216
My hands were so swollen
228
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:29,595
from hockey fights, I was having
a hard time drawing at the beginning.
229
00:15:30,304 --> 00:15:32,264
But it clicked right away.
230
00:15:34,808 --> 00:15:38,687
I think a lot of life is being
at the right place at the right time.
231
00:15:40,189 --> 00:15:42,316
I knew a guy that worked
at the company Alias,
232
00:15:42,399 --> 00:15:45,611
and they made three-dimensional
modeling software.
233
00:15:46,570 --> 00:15:50,366
They brought me in as being one
of the only classically trained animators.
234
00:15:51,533 --> 00:15:53,202
Alias would send me all over the world.
235
00:15:53,285 --> 00:15:55,621
They'd sent me to Ferrari
or send me to Boeing,
236
00:15:55,704 --> 00:15:58,290
and they'd throw an engine part
and say, "Model that, kid."
237
00:15:58,415 --> 00:16:00,250
So I became really fast at it.
238
00:16:02,878 --> 00:16:05,881
I wanted to get a PhD and I go to Berkeley
and it's just happening.
239
00:16:09,093 --> 00:16:14,223
All right. The topic for today, first
of all, is the rendering of polygons.
240
00:16:14,306 --> 00:16:17,351
Ed Catmull was teaching
a class with Jim Blinn.
241
00:16:18,018 --> 00:16:20,771
These guys are luminaries,
they're visiting professors
242
00:16:20,854 --> 00:16:23,524
because they are now starting
the Lucas film computer group.
243
00:16:23,607 --> 00:16:27,736
And they had this vision, particularly Ed,
of making a movie with computers.
244
00:16:28,612 --> 00:16:30,447
And I learned a lot from him.
245
00:16:30,531 --> 00:16:34,618
I was really there because I wanted to use
technology in creative endeavors.
246
00:16:35,703 --> 00:16:37,538
So when I finish a PhD at Berkeley...
247
00:16:40,624 --> 00:16:43,585
I had this vision of like, "We're gonna
make movies in our own world."
248
00:16:43,669 --> 00:16:48,382
We're like little gods, but it was really
hard to do because it cost so much money.
249
00:16:49,299 --> 00:16:55,639
Then I heard that at ILM, they were trying
to make a realistic water creature.
250
00:17:01,895 --> 00:17:04,666
There were some
pretty serious challenges to this thing,
251
00:17:04,690 --> 00:17:07,985
but when I'm writing,
I don't want to worry
252
00:17:08,068 --> 00:17:11,113
about how we're actually going to do it.
Let's just get the image.
253
00:17:12,781 --> 00:17:15,492
And I had imagined this scene,
which we called the pseudopod scene,
254
00:17:15,576 --> 00:17:19,204
and it's this kind of water tentacle
that comes into the human base
255
00:17:19,288 --> 00:17:23,167
and looks around,
but it's intelligently controlled water.
256
00:17:26,420 --> 00:17:28,172
But the question was, how to do it.
257
00:17:29,465 --> 00:17:31,216
We really wanted The Abyss.
258
00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:34,636
Dennis really was excited
about computer graphics.
259
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,432
I was doing marketing at the time
and set up a breakfast meeting
260
00:17:38,515 --> 00:17:41,310
between Dennis Muren and James Cameron.
261
00:17:41,852 --> 00:17:45,105
What I was imagining,
nobody could quite figure out how to do.
262
00:17:45,397 --> 00:17:50,110
So I was thinking of things
like Claymation with white clay,
263
00:17:50,235 --> 00:17:53,614
and we'd project high-speed photography
of water,
264
00:17:53,697 --> 00:17:57,451
and we'd animate the clay
to follow the ripples in the water.
265
00:17:57,534 --> 00:18:00,454
It would have been very clunky,
very difficult, maybe a little jittery.
266
00:18:00,537 --> 00:18:04,374
I actually looked to that show, at the
artwork and hearing him describe it,
267
00:18:04,625 --> 00:18:08,337
and thought, "No, no, no, there's got
to be another way you can do this."
268
00:18:09,129 --> 00:18:11,381
I was very, very leery about CG.
269
00:18:11,465 --> 00:18:13,300
It was not an area I knew anything about.
270
00:18:13,383 --> 00:18:16,261
Felt like it would be so opaque
that I wouldn't be, as a director,
271
00:18:16,345 --> 00:18:19,848
really able to to control it
or even know what to ask for.
272
00:18:20,808 --> 00:18:25,521
At that point in time, there had been
one fully integrated character
273
00:18:25,771 --> 00:18:28,899
in a motion picture
that was generated by CG.
274
00:18:34,154 --> 00:18:35,757
On the movie
Young Sherlock Holmes,
275
00:18:35,781 --> 00:18:37,825
I had to come up with
something you've never seen,
276
00:18:37,908 --> 00:18:39,993
and it was actually my wife
that came up with it.
277
00:18:40,077 --> 00:18:42,037
A flat, stained glass figure,
278
00:18:42,121 --> 00:18:45,541
but you take out all the lead
that's holding the glass together.
279
00:18:45,624 --> 00:18:48,794
So you have a hundred pieces
all close to each other,
280
00:18:48,877 --> 00:18:50,754
but they're not touching each other.
281
00:18:50,838 --> 00:18:55,134
They can walk as one,
and that's perfect for computer graphics.
282
00:18:56,468 --> 00:19:00,556
Our little group did it.
It took six months to do seven shots.
283
00:19:01,140 --> 00:19:04,810
It was an achievement in its time,
but there were no soft surfaces.
284
00:19:04,893 --> 00:19:10,440
It was all hard surfaces that were being
animated into this concept of a figure.
285
00:19:11,024 --> 00:19:14,862
"But Dennis said, " We're now doing stuff
with fluid surfaces,
286
00:19:14,945 --> 00:19:18,574
"with some of our software
that we're just developing."
287
00:19:19,241 --> 00:19:21,201
"We might be able to show you something."
288
00:19:22,536 --> 00:19:23,996
The night before he came by,
289
00:19:24,079 --> 00:19:29,293
we spent the night doing a test
of a really quick rendered model.
290
00:19:29,418 --> 00:19:32,754
Not at all photo-real, but it did show
the shape moving by itself.
291
00:19:32,838 --> 00:19:35,132
Now we can actually
play that animation back.
292
00:19:37,885 --> 00:19:40,429
And you can see here the pseudopod
293
00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:44,308
sort of lifting his head up
and pulling itself forward a bit.
294
00:19:45,225 --> 00:19:48,520
The ILM test was not a slam dunk
by any stretch.
295
00:19:48,604 --> 00:19:50,981
But Dennis said,
"It's going to take this many months."
296
00:19:51,064 --> 00:19:54,026
"We need X amount of time
to develop a new tool set."
297
00:19:54,234 --> 00:19:57,112
And so I thought, one,
total leap of faith.
298
00:19:57,321 --> 00:20:00,532
Two, it will be so cool.
299
00:20:02,618 --> 00:20:05,704
We had a lot of the technology
Pixar had left behind.
300
00:20:10,167 --> 00:20:13,503
We didn't really know how to do it
or how we would get it all done,
301
00:20:13,587 --> 00:20:15,464
we're kind of figuring it out as we go.
302
00:20:15,547 --> 00:20:17,799
And we didn't have a very big crew.
303
00:20:17,883 --> 00:20:21,762
So we had no choice but to grow
the computer graphics department.
304
00:20:21,845 --> 00:20:23,847
I met with Doug Kay
and George Joblove,
305
00:20:23,972 --> 00:20:26,558
who at that time
were running the ILM computer group.
306
00:20:26,642 --> 00:20:28,644
"I thought, " Here is a chance
307
00:20:28,727 --> 00:20:32,814
"to take these ideas I have
and actually make something."
308
00:20:32,898 --> 00:20:34,983
Mark Dippé knew how to write code,
309
00:20:35,067 --> 00:20:37,778
and could just see
what Jim wanted in the film.
310
00:20:38,862 --> 00:20:40,614
And on the other end of the spectrum
311
00:20:40,697 --> 00:20:44,034
is Steve Williams,
kind of a mechanical age guy
312
00:20:44,326 --> 00:20:46,662
who somehow found himself
in the digital world.
313
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:48,830
We brought him in to be an animator.
314
00:20:49,748 --> 00:20:52,334
Dennis was the supervisor
on the team there.
315
00:20:54,419 --> 00:20:58,340
Dennis came to set, but we were shooting
in a kind of distant location
316
00:20:58,423 --> 00:21:00,884
and he had some gigs
that he was running at ILM.
317
00:21:01,635 --> 00:21:03,887
So he had to send John Knoll out
to babysit us
318
00:21:03,971 --> 00:21:06,306
and make sure we didn't
screw up too badly.
319
00:21:08,558 --> 00:21:10,638
I'd been doing a lot of work
with Dennis Muren,
320
00:21:10,686 --> 00:21:16,400
and my enthusiasm and interest
led to him asking me to move to The Abyss.
321
00:21:16,483 --> 00:21:18,527
I was the guy who was on set
322
00:21:18,610 --> 00:21:22,322
and in the computer graphics department
every day, keeping an eye on things.
323
00:21:23,490 --> 00:21:25,200
It was all brand new.
324
00:21:25,826 --> 00:21:28,120
When we were shooting
the background plates
325
00:21:28,203 --> 00:21:31,832
the pseudopod was going to go into,
wherever the camera is inside the set,
326
00:21:31,915 --> 00:21:34,334
I'm gonna need to note later
because we need to put
327
00:21:34,418 --> 00:21:38,588
a computer camera in a virtual set so
that we get the perspective right on this.
328
00:21:39,172 --> 00:21:43,593
We marked where the camera is
on these Xerox floor plans of these sets.
329
00:21:44,136 --> 00:21:46,638
What focal length we're using,
how high the camera is.
330
00:21:47,723 --> 00:21:50,934
They said every time the
camera moves, that could be a problem.
331
00:21:51,018 --> 00:21:53,312
I said that it doesn't matter.
The camera's going to move.
332
00:21:53,395 --> 00:21:54,688
Some of it was hand held.
333
00:21:54,771 --> 00:21:58,984
So John had to inhabit this zone
between the crazy director
334
00:21:59,067 --> 00:22:00,944
that wanted to move the camera around
335
00:22:01,028 --> 00:22:05,324
and do what needed to be done
at ILM in Marin.
336
00:22:05,407 --> 00:22:07,951
There was a lot of conceptual work
that had been done.
337
00:22:08,035 --> 00:22:09,077
You could visualize it.
338
00:22:09,161 --> 00:22:11,496
But then the real problem is
how the hell do you do it?
339
00:22:11,580 --> 00:22:14,124
How do you simulate water?
How do you make water ripple?
340
00:22:14,207 --> 00:22:15,876
How do we develop a face on the end?
341
00:22:16,626 --> 00:22:18,128
We had to create all this stuff.
342
00:22:19,755 --> 00:22:23,508
One of the other challenges
was that water is a combination
343
00:22:23,592 --> 00:22:25,218
of reflection and refraction.
344
00:22:25,302 --> 00:22:28,305
For refraction, we were going to use
the background plate
345
00:22:28,388 --> 00:22:30,682
and distort it to be
what you see through it.
346
00:22:30,766 --> 00:22:33,685
But for reflection,
that's everything around us,
347
00:22:33,769 --> 00:22:36,188
and over the course
of the couple of days of shooting,
348
00:22:36,271 --> 00:22:38,815
I would have photographed
every part of the set.
349
00:22:39,024 --> 00:22:42,319
But then you had to seam them
all together into an environment.
350
00:22:42,778 --> 00:22:44,196
Boom! Photoshop.
351
00:22:44,863 --> 00:22:46,698
Fortunately, John Knoll was involved
352
00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:48,950
with Photoshop at that time,
and he had a version
353
00:22:49,034 --> 00:22:51,870
that we would work with
and use as a demo or test.
354
00:22:52,496 --> 00:22:56,416
So we took all the images with the
computer, and we built in a little room,
355
00:22:57,709 --> 00:23:00,837
and that water snake, now it's refracting
and reflecting the world.
356
00:23:01,421 --> 00:23:03,423
But when you render
something on a computer,
357
00:23:03,507 --> 00:23:05,467
it has an unnatural perfection to it.
358
00:23:05,884 --> 00:23:09,805
It looked like a magic trick.
The water was too clear.
359
00:23:09,888 --> 00:23:12,849
That was the kind of thing
Dennis is very, very sensitive to.
360
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,061
How would we build
environments around that
361
00:23:16,144 --> 00:23:18,730
so that it felt like, you know,
belonged in that area?
362
00:23:18,814 --> 00:23:21,858
And he, of course, just instinctively knew
363
00:23:21,942 --> 00:23:24,027
all of those problems
that had to be solved.
364
00:23:26,405 --> 00:23:29,449
He knew all of the traditional
techniques inside and out.
365
00:23:31,451 --> 00:23:33,912
He really became my mentor
in the system there.
366
00:23:33,995 --> 00:23:36,164
I told him,
"Just introduce a little"
367
00:23:36,456 --> 00:23:39,209
"brightness over the blacks
and suddenly..."
368
00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:42,254
It's got weight. It's lifting up.
369
00:23:42,337 --> 00:23:44,965
It's moving around
and it doesn't look like a trick.
370
00:23:45,048 --> 00:23:46,508
It looks much more realistic.
371
00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:53,515
When the water tentacle comes
onto the screen, and the face forms...
372
00:23:57,936 --> 00:24:02,649
I remember that moment being
one of the turning points in my life.
373
00:24:03,108 --> 00:24:06,653
I knew when I saw that
that ILM could do anything,
374
00:24:09,072 --> 00:24:11,199
and that's where I wanted to be.
375
00:24:12,117 --> 00:24:13,910
- No, no, no, no, no.
- It's okay, it's okay.
376
00:24:14,744 --> 00:24:16,121
What is it?
377
00:24:18,665 --> 00:24:20,292
Is it alive?
378
00:24:23,962 --> 00:24:28,425
- Lindsey, no.
- Sea water.
379
00:24:29,426 --> 00:24:32,888
It's only 90 seconds
of running time of that character
380
00:24:32,971 --> 00:24:35,432
spread over, you know,
four or five-minute sequence.
381
00:24:35,974 --> 00:24:40,353
But it did start the new era
of digital effects in motion pictures.
382
00:24:41,188 --> 00:24:46,401
After we did The Abyss,
I saw that this has got a future.
383
00:24:46,485 --> 00:24:49,321
I've got to figure this out,
you know, I need this tool,
384
00:24:49,446 --> 00:24:52,574
and I want to understand the tool.
So I decided to take a year off.
385
00:24:53,992 --> 00:24:59,122
I bought this book on computer graphics
that's like 1,800 pages long.
386
00:24:59,206 --> 00:25:01,082
Read it in the local coffee shop here.
387
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,465
And came away realizing
that there's no magic involved.
388
00:25:08,548 --> 00:25:10,133
Everything can be defined.
389
00:25:11,092 --> 00:25:14,888
That was just really exciting to me
that the shots are all in progress.
390
00:25:14,971 --> 00:25:17,974
They're built incrementally
so you can improve things
391
00:25:18,058 --> 00:25:21,186
or change things all the way
through the process
392
00:25:21,811 --> 00:25:24,314
to make them look as good
as what's in your mind.
393
00:25:26,274 --> 00:25:29,027
There was no limit
on your own imagination,
394
00:25:29,569 --> 00:25:31,321
and it just needed to be pursued.
395
00:25:31,988 --> 00:25:34,074
I can't explain it any more than that.
396
00:25:36,493 --> 00:25:38,578
Dennis, he saw the future there
397
00:25:39,079 --> 00:25:41,331
way before anybody else
398
00:25:41,456 --> 00:25:43,416
was thinking about that
here in the company.
399
00:25:48,964 --> 00:25:53,552
For a long time in the Model Shop,
in those early days of CG,
400
00:25:54,511 --> 00:25:56,179
we were under the impression
401
00:25:56,263 --> 00:26:00,767
that their work was just going to be
sort of enhancing what we were doing.
402
00:26:01,434 --> 00:26:04,980
That it would be an additional kind
of decorative thing
403
00:26:05,105 --> 00:26:10,235
and that we would still
always be the center of work.
404
00:26:12,362 --> 00:26:15,865
A lot of departments
were sort of slightly wistful
405
00:26:15,949 --> 00:26:18,827
of the work that we did
because we were the ones
406
00:26:18,910 --> 00:26:21,788
that got to throw paint around
and build things.
407
00:26:23,373 --> 00:26:25,333
This is a late night delirious camp.
408
00:26:26,668 --> 00:26:29,212
Oh, my... Hey. Hi, silly.
409
00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:32,299
I saw the Model Shop
like being this machine
410
00:26:32,382 --> 00:26:35,719
made up of people that had
a really broad spectrum background
411
00:26:35,802 --> 00:26:37,722
that brought all different
kinds of things to it.
412
00:26:39,139 --> 00:26:43,935
I was always amazed
by how well choreographed we were.
413
00:26:45,854 --> 00:26:48,094
I came here in '88.
I just wanted to make stuff.
414
00:26:48,148 --> 00:26:50,066
I always wanted to work with my hands.
415
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:55,405
He was this young kid at the time.
416
00:26:56,448 --> 00:26:59,701
He was pretty quiet.
I mean, he could come into a room
417
00:26:59,784 --> 00:27:02,203
and you wouldn't even know
he'd come in and left again,
418
00:27:02,912 --> 00:27:04,789
and so hard-working.
419
00:27:05,957 --> 00:27:08,209
On Ghostbusters II,
420
00:27:08,293 --> 00:27:11,296
they had these scenes that were
in the bowels of Grand Central Station.
421
00:27:11,379 --> 00:27:15,467
I'm in some kind of a chamber.
There's some tile work.
422
00:27:15,550 --> 00:27:19,763
- Slime! It's a river of slime!
- What?
423
00:27:21,264 --> 00:27:24,559
The vaults of this thing,
we had to build in the Model Shop.
424
00:27:27,145 --> 00:27:30,774
They had actually made little tiles
and laid them in,
425
00:27:31,566 --> 00:27:36,738
but there was some bare wood visible,
so they had me work on that,
426
00:27:37,197 --> 00:27:39,199
and I drew them all on.
427
00:27:39,616 --> 00:27:41,951
It worked super well and really fast.
428
00:27:42,035 --> 00:27:45,246
And you came over
and you complimented me on it
429
00:27:45,330 --> 00:27:47,707
because it looked really, really good.
430
00:27:48,124 --> 00:27:51,419
So I remember that was the first time
I think I ever talked to you.
431
00:27:57,175 --> 00:27:59,469
But you wind up working
with people in the shop
432
00:27:59,552 --> 00:28:01,513
and you develop a relationship with them.
433
00:28:04,015 --> 00:28:05,767
You know, you're crawling
all over something
434
00:28:05,892 --> 00:28:07,394
and you're in each other's faces,
435
00:28:07,477 --> 00:28:09,646
everybody knows their thing
and they know what to do,
436
00:28:09,729 --> 00:28:12,565
and it was just kind of...
That was the way the relationship...
437
00:28:12,649 --> 00:28:16,069
It came from that, you know,
it was this working thing.
438
00:28:19,781 --> 00:28:22,283
And then over time
I'd become more talkative
439
00:28:22,367 --> 00:28:24,911
and comfortable being a lot louder.
440
00:28:24,994 --> 00:28:27,205
Sometimes you want him to stop talking.
441
00:28:27,288 --> 00:28:28,790
- Now.
- Sometimes, but...
442
00:28:31,668 --> 00:28:33,086
We make a pretty good pair.
443
00:28:36,172 --> 00:28:37,340
The joy of working
444
00:28:37,465 --> 00:28:40,635
was being together,
physically working with your hands
445
00:28:40,719 --> 00:28:42,887
and interacting with each other all day.
446
00:28:43,263 --> 00:28:44,681
We had a playground.
447
00:28:44,764 --> 00:28:48,268
- We'll do a fly-by.
- Okay. Beautiful.
448
00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:50,687
- Oh, hi, Dennis.
- Hi.
449
00:28:51,354 --> 00:28:53,481
- How's it going?
- Hi, Bill.
450
00:28:53,606 --> 00:28:55,108
- Home movies.
- Walk it up.
451
00:28:55,191 --> 00:28:57,360
Don't drop the baby!
452
00:29:00,113 --> 00:29:03,032
The family sense
of all working together
453
00:29:03,116 --> 00:29:06,035
and collectively really didn't change much
454
00:29:06,119 --> 00:29:11,416
until computer graphics became an obvious
competitor for the shop.
455
00:29:11,499 --> 00:29:14,544
There were so many people
that were skilled
456
00:29:14,627 --> 00:29:17,797
in the arts of the photochemical ways.
457
00:29:17,881 --> 00:29:20,759
They didn't know how to just pick up
and change like,
458
00:29:20,884 --> 00:29:22,886
"Oh, we're gonna do
everything differently now."
459
00:29:22,969 --> 00:29:27,098
So in '91, when I was promoted
to general manager,
460
00:29:27,182 --> 00:29:29,309
we did offer training to people
461
00:29:29,392 --> 00:29:33,480
who were in traditional departments
to see if we could move them over.
462
00:29:34,105 --> 00:29:38,943
I immediately recognized
that computer graphics were one more tool.
463
00:29:39,736 --> 00:29:43,573
I saw it as just another
bunch of paint and brushes.
464
00:29:44,491 --> 00:29:46,242
I don't think anybody else much saw it
465
00:29:46,326 --> 00:29:48,828
that way at the time,
at least not in the Model Shop.
466
00:29:49,370 --> 00:29:52,957
When people started leaving and going
to the computer graphics department,
467
00:29:53,041 --> 00:29:55,251
I was one of those people
that had resentment about it
468
00:29:55,335 --> 00:29:57,253
because I felt like,
"Hey, they're taking apart"
469
00:29:57,337 --> 00:29:58,880
"this machine we have over here."
470
00:30:00,215 --> 00:30:03,259
The Model Shop was this great organism
that could do anything.
471
00:30:03,343 --> 00:30:06,137
But then these key pieces
were being pulled out of it.
472
00:30:08,264 --> 00:30:10,350
Jean was one of the few people
that adapted.
473
00:30:11,142 --> 00:30:16,105
She learned the digital tools
and became quite proficient at them.
474
00:30:16,815 --> 00:30:19,025
My training evolved
into the opportunity
475
00:30:19,108 --> 00:30:22,821
to work on a film as a view painter.
476
00:30:22,904 --> 00:30:24,656
I would still come
and go in the Model Shop,
477
00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:29,619
but I was feeling less and less
like I was welcome there.
478
00:30:31,204 --> 00:30:33,206
It was very hard to watch
your little community
479
00:30:33,289 --> 00:30:34,791
kind of being torn down around you.
480
00:30:34,874 --> 00:30:36,543
That's kind of what it felt like.
481
00:30:38,461 --> 00:30:41,756
And they called it "the dark side."
You know, and I had these feelings, too.
482
00:30:43,466 --> 00:30:48,596
They felt that I was not being
loyal, but I wasn't going to go hide.
483
00:30:49,597 --> 00:30:52,517
I was determined to bridge those gaps.
484
00:30:53,268 --> 00:30:58,147
I also really could see
that the Model Shop jobs were threatened.
485
00:31:01,526 --> 00:31:04,279
It was starting to have,
like "My God, this is going to have"
486
00:31:04,362 --> 00:31:07,365
"consequences for the Model Shop,"
because people give you the book,
487
00:31:07,448 --> 00:31:09,200
What's the Color of your Parachute?
488
00:31:09,284 --> 00:31:12,620
How to Reorganize Your Life
and Reinvent Yourself.
489
00:31:15,832 --> 00:31:17,500
I remember talking to Dennis about it,
490
00:31:17,625 --> 00:31:21,671
and he said, "Well, I would guess,
maybe you only have"
491
00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:24,591
"two, two and a half more years
or something like that."
492
00:31:24,674 --> 00:31:30,221
It's like, jeez, that was really
depressing, you know, to think of that.
493
00:31:33,892 --> 00:31:37,729
The Model Shop, camera department,
stage, all of those things,
494
00:31:38,354 --> 00:31:42,525
that was the foundations of ILM.
That was becoming less and less important.
495
00:31:42,609 --> 00:31:45,737
Computer graphics was becoming
bigger and bigger and bigger.
496
00:31:47,155 --> 00:31:50,742
All of that's happening, and we were
hiring a lot of new people that had
497
00:31:50,867 --> 00:31:54,954
specialty in the digital side
to kind of meet the demand.
498
00:32:02,921 --> 00:32:08,301
I was born in Hong Kong
under the colonial rule by the British.
499
00:32:10,303 --> 00:32:14,474
I was lucky to have a mother
who actually loves movies.
500
00:32:14,891 --> 00:32:20,396
When you have five kids, you want some
sort of release between chores.
501
00:32:21,856 --> 00:32:24,609
I went to a very traditional
girl's school.
502
00:32:25,151 --> 00:32:29,781
As part of the education,
they would take us to see classic movies.
503
00:32:29,864 --> 00:32:34,577
And the first one was War and Peace,
then we did Gone with the Wind.
504
00:32:36,329 --> 00:32:42,293
And then, at the age of 15, I was
introduced to this film called Star Wars.
505
00:32:42,543 --> 00:32:43,711
Here they come.
506
00:32:46,130 --> 00:32:47,340
I was blown away.
507
00:32:50,468 --> 00:32:52,845
Star Wars planted a seed in me.
508
00:32:53,304 --> 00:32:57,350
This world is bigger than
what you are experiencing.
509
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:03,898
So that name, Industrial Light and Magic,
left a very, very strong impression,
510
00:33:04,649 --> 00:33:06,025
you know, in my mind.
511
00:33:07,986 --> 00:33:12,031
I really wanted to travel,
so I went to London.
512
00:33:12,740 --> 00:33:17,704
I started thinking I might like
to work in the film industry
513
00:33:17,787 --> 00:33:20,289
when I was doing my post-graduate studies,
514
00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:23,126
discovering how to paint digitally.
515
00:33:24,377 --> 00:33:25,670
This is early '80s.
516
00:33:31,426 --> 00:33:37,015
And then eventually, in addition
to being able to animate and paint,
517
00:33:37,098 --> 00:33:42,854
I could also do the technical part,
which is write code, and I worked
518
00:33:42,937 --> 00:33:44,814
at a production company in London.
519
00:33:45,273 --> 00:33:48,484
They got this campaign,
a census commercial,
520
00:33:48,568 --> 00:33:52,280
and what they wanted to do
is to make a baby talk.
521
00:33:52,947 --> 00:33:56,701
Who am I? Where am I from?
What am I gonna do?
522
00:33:57,368 --> 00:33:58,786
There was quite a lot of dialogue.
523
00:33:58,870 --> 00:34:02,999
It was a very ambitious campaign
and I was doing it by myself.
524
00:34:03,082 --> 00:34:06,544
No one has ever made anything talk,
not even talking animals.
525
00:34:08,296 --> 00:34:11,007
I packed my bags and said to my husband,
526
00:34:11,090 --> 00:34:14,510
"I'm gonna live at my work
for three days. Don't disturb me."
527
00:34:14,594 --> 00:34:18,681
"I'm gonna have to come up with something
pretty spectacular to get this done."
528
00:34:19,849 --> 00:34:22,894
Hello, may I ask you a few questions?
529
00:34:23,478 --> 00:34:24,812
When was I born?
530
00:34:25,521 --> 00:34:29,650
Where will I go to school?
What kind of house will I live in?
531
00:34:29,734 --> 00:34:32,612
The census, it counts
because you count.
532
00:34:33,780 --> 00:34:36,616
When it came out, it was one of the most
533
00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:40,244
well-received commercials
during that time.
534
00:34:40,536 --> 00:34:42,455
Ellen, how long did all this take?
535
00:34:42,538 --> 00:34:44,916
Um, the commercial was 30 seconds.
536
00:34:45,333 --> 00:34:50,046
So I had to make up 750 grids,
each of a different shape.
537
00:34:50,129 --> 00:34:51,589
Through the grapevine,
538
00:34:51,672 --> 00:34:55,593
Industrial Light & Magic
heard about me in London,
539
00:34:55,676 --> 00:34:58,387
and wanted to meet with me.
540
00:34:58,471 --> 00:35:02,183
That's something I've been
dreaming of since I was 15,
541
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,603
and I couldn't possibly
let that opportunity
542
00:35:06,687 --> 00:35:08,356
slip through my fingers.
543
00:35:09,398 --> 00:35:15,780
I was very much in love with my husband,
but he wanted to stay in London.
544
00:35:16,531 --> 00:35:20,576
He was very understanding and said,
"Well, you do what you got to do."
545
00:35:20,660 --> 00:35:22,703
That was my crossroad.
546
00:35:24,288 --> 00:35:27,792
We said we'll just carry
on seeing each other.
547
00:35:27,875 --> 00:35:32,964
But eventually, of course,
you know, we separated.
548
00:35:33,631 --> 00:35:37,009
But we had to follow our dreams, right?
549
00:35:42,849 --> 00:35:47,895
As time goes by, I started to actually
get to know this group of people.
550
00:35:50,022 --> 00:35:52,024
We started to create a bond.
551
00:35:52,692 --> 00:35:55,403
My family was in Hong Kong and in England.
552
00:35:55,486 --> 00:35:58,156
I was by myself in San Francisco.
553
00:35:58,781 --> 00:36:02,493
So these people became my brothers,
my sisters.
554
00:36:03,786 --> 00:36:07,373
ILM brought these highly
talented people from all over the world
555
00:36:07,456 --> 00:36:10,168
into this one spot to work together.
556
00:36:10,251 --> 00:36:14,297
It was a really exciting time
because the company blossomed, it grew.
557
00:36:15,923 --> 00:36:18,259
It's like coming to
an amusement park, right?
558
00:36:18,342 --> 00:36:19,719
And you're not paying to get in.
559
00:36:19,802 --> 00:36:22,096
They're paying you
to be in the amusement park.
560
00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:23,723
And that's what it was like here.
561
00:36:23,848 --> 00:36:28,352
All of us were in our twenties,
trying to find ourselves.
562
00:36:28,769 --> 00:36:32,231
We were not just interested
in computer graphics.
563
00:36:32,356 --> 00:36:35,443
We were also, like, exploring life.
564
00:36:36,777 --> 00:36:38,905
From the people to the technology,
565
00:36:38,988 --> 00:36:41,949
to the speculation
about the future of humanity,
566
00:36:42,408 --> 00:36:45,411
it was a free education on so many levels.
567
00:36:46,746 --> 00:36:50,041
We're all relatively young,
and we worked long hours, you know.
568
00:36:50,124 --> 00:36:52,251
It's the whole thing.
"Work hard, play hard."
569
00:36:52,335 --> 00:36:57,131
We would hang out in Mark Dippé
and Spaz's office, called "the pit."
570
00:36:57,215 --> 00:36:59,800
I would like to introduce you
to one of my havens
571
00:36:59,926 --> 00:37:02,178
of supposed creativity,
called "the pit," here at.
572
00:37:02,261 --> 00:37:04,138
Industrial Light and Mashed Potatoes.
573
00:37:04,764 --> 00:37:06,933
The pit was an old sound room here.
574
00:37:07,016 --> 00:37:08,893
"Mix beat," they used to call it
or something.
575
00:37:09,018 --> 00:37:11,103
But George Lucas came in once and he goes,
576
00:37:11,187 --> 00:37:13,814
"Yeah, this is where I formed EditDroid,
in this room."
577
00:37:13,898 --> 00:37:15,524
Spaz was a little...
578
00:37:18,361 --> 00:37:22,490
The Pit had this reputation
of being this bad boy hangout place.
579
00:37:22,573 --> 00:37:24,242
Definitely not the ILM that I knew.
580
00:37:24,992 --> 00:37:28,037
The first time I went in there,
it was literally like a man cave,
581
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,415
and there was this energy in there
that was distinctly rebel-like.
582
00:37:32,124 --> 00:37:33,292
We had everything.
583
00:37:33,376 --> 00:37:37,171
Dartboard, beer, you know,
it was just... It was crazy.
584
00:37:41,425 --> 00:37:42,985
We would just throw these nutty parties
585
00:37:43,010 --> 00:37:45,012
because it was soundproof
and you'd shut the door,
586
00:37:45,096 --> 00:37:47,223
heavy door, nobody's going to give a crap.
587
00:37:54,063 --> 00:37:55,314
The place would get destroyed.
588
00:37:55,398 --> 00:37:58,317
Our office, security
came in and took pictures.
589
00:38:04,573 --> 00:38:07,201
I still have dreams about that place.
It's really strange.
590
00:38:07,285 --> 00:38:09,704
I mean, I lived there, I lived there.
591
00:38:12,206 --> 00:38:17,586
It was great because we were at this
ground level of discovery and as an artist
592
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:21,007
working with Spaz, working with Dennis,
with the computer graphic artists
593
00:38:21,090 --> 00:38:24,885
at that time, we were able to merge
all these different disciplines together.
594
00:38:25,469 --> 00:38:28,055
I was at the right place
at the right time.
595
00:38:29,890 --> 00:38:32,226
I was born in Taiwan in 1962.
596
00:38:35,563 --> 00:38:37,189
And when I was about four or five,
597
00:38:37,356 --> 00:38:39,650
my parents moved over
to Detroit, Michigan.
598
00:38:40,151 --> 00:38:42,528
My father was an engineer
at Ford Motor Company.
599
00:38:44,697 --> 00:38:48,743
And we were probably one of the few
Asian families in that community.
600
00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:52,455
I was kind of like
a fish out of water, really.
601
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,124
And so I was picked on constantly.
602
00:38:55,207 --> 00:38:58,878
I remember going through high school,
just a very unpleasant experience.
603
00:38:59,879 --> 00:39:03,174
That's where I started to discover art
and I started to draw a lot.
604
00:39:03,257 --> 00:39:04,759
I wanted to escape reality.
605
00:39:05,426 --> 00:39:10,222
And what transformed me really was
seeing two films in 1977.
606
00:39:10,306 --> 00:39:12,558
One was Harryhausen's
Golden Voyage of Sinbad,
607
00:39:12,641 --> 00:39:13,893
the other one was Star Wars.
608
00:39:15,770 --> 00:39:19,065
Both of those films
transported me into different worlds,
609
00:39:19,148 --> 00:39:21,817
and I want to know more about the process.
610
00:39:21,901 --> 00:39:25,529
This is when they start to publish
art books and "making of" books.
611
00:39:26,197 --> 00:39:29,617
Magazines where they actually showed you
filmmakers like Steve Galich,
612
00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:34,622
and Lorne Peterson, Richard Edlund,
Ken Ralston, and Dennis Muren.
613
00:39:36,165 --> 00:39:40,336
And I saw all the artwork, the creativity,
from Ralph McQuarrie and Joe Johnston,
614
00:39:40,878 --> 00:39:44,006
and I was like, "Wow, these are
the people doing the craft."
615
00:39:44,590 --> 00:39:47,426
I thought they had trained
for years to do this job.
616
00:39:47,510 --> 00:39:49,804
In reality, they were all
very new to it as well.
617
00:39:49,887 --> 00:39:51,931
And I thought, "Okay,
there's hope for me."
618
00:39:52,014 --> 00:39:54,809
And I went into the basement
and started to create my sets
619
00:39:54,892 --> 00:39:56,936
and started learning
about film making on my own.
620
00:39:57,019 --> 00:39:59,230
Model building, animation.
621
00:40:01,232 --> 00:40:03,109
I ended up at UCLA.
622
00:40:03,192 --> 00:40:05,903
One of my first films was called
Mental Block.
623
00:40:05,986 --> 00:40:08,489
It was a four-minute,
experimental stop motion film
624
00:40:08,572 --> 00:40:10,116
that I did sort of in my dorm room.
625
00:40:17,915 --> 00:40:20,000
And that won first place
in the Focus Awards.
626
00:40:21,544 --> 00:40:24,755
And the first prize was a car.
And I was like, "Okay, fantastic."
627
00:40:24,839 --> 00:40:28,300
I got a car in college.
Maybe film making could be a career.
628
00:40:30,219 --> 00:40:34,640
In the mid-1980s, I started working
for a company called Digital Productions.
629
00:40:34,807 --> 00:40:38,769
They were doing movie titles,
flying logos, companies show IDs,
630
00:40:39,311 --> 00:40:41,814
and I learned how to design
for computer graphics.
631
00:40:42,690 --> 00:40:45,693
Lasted a good several years,
and then I actually got
632
00:40:45,776 --> 00:40:48,487
an invitation to interview
for the ILM art department.
633
00:40:48,571 --> 00:40:50,948
I moved out of my apartment,
packed everything up,
634
00:40:51,031 --> 00:40:53,909
and I drove north because I thought
this was my foot in the door.
635
00:40:53,993 --> 00:40:55,619
I was gonna put it all in.
636
00:40:56,704 --> 00:40:59,498
Who are these key people
who were there at that time?
637
00:40:59,582 --> 00:41:02,501
People I'd seen when I was 15 years old
in these documentaries,
638
00:41:02,626 --> 00:41:04,920
I was like, here they were in person.
639
00:41:05,588 --> 00:41:09,592
I remember the first day walking through
the hallway, and I just saw this figure.
640
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,136
I knew it was Dennis Muren
because he's so iconic
641
00:41:12,219 --> 00:41:13,738
and I've seen so many pictures of him.
642
00:41:13,762 --> 00:41:17,308
And me being the new kid at ILM,
it was just like, wow!
643
00:41:17,391 --> 00:41:19,393
Okay, you do live up to your stature.
644
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,147
Everybody knew all the projects.
645
00:41:23,355 --> 00:41:26,650
We were all in everybody else's dailies,
and we could all work together.
646
00:41:30,613 --> 00:41:35,659
Whether it was Roger Rabbit,
or Death Becomes Her,
647
00:41:36,660 --> 00:41:39,413
they were all very different,
and they were all very specific.
648
00:41:41,916 --> 00:41:44,126
ILM was this laboratory
experience in a sense,
649
00:41:44,210 --> 00:41:47,129
because you're being asked
to do things no one's ever done.
650
00:41:48,881 --> 00:41:52,259
I remember one day Dennis goes,
"Jim Cameron just called again."
651
00:41:52,384 --> 00:41:56,847
He wants us to do this thing,
and this is a lot bigger than The Abyss.
652
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,895
You had to basically sign something
that you could sit down in a room here
653
00:42:02,978 --> 00:42:04,438
when somebody was sort of out there
654
00:42:04,522 --> 00:42:06,607
waiting for you to finish
reading the script.
655
00:42:09,610 --> 00:42:12,821
I remember reading it going,
"How the hell are we gonna do this?"
656
00:42:12,905 --> 00:42:15,574
I said, "That's it,
we have to build a human being."
657
00:42:16,158 --> 00:42:17,868
In T2,
658
00:42:17,952 --> 00:42:21,455
I wanted to have a worthy adversary
to Arnold's Terminator
659
00:42:21,539 --> 00:42:25,793
but something so unlike him
that it wasn't just two robots
660
00:42:25,876 --> 00:42:28,087
doing, you know, Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots.
661
00:42:28,462 --> 00:42:30,798
I imagined this kind of
liquid metal terminator.
662
00:42:31,799 --> 00:42:32,841
But the question was,
663
00:42:32,925 --> 00:42:37,012
"Can we hang the whole movie
on a soft surface character with CG?"
664
00:42:38,764 --> 00:42:41,642
If Dennis said we couldn't do it,
I wasn't gonna do it.
665
00:42:42,393 --> 00:42:45,563
We did some tests here
to make sure that we could do the job,
666
00:42:45,646 --> 00:42:49,108
that we could make a chrome figure
move around, change shape.
667
00:42:49,191 --> 00:42:50,859
It was kind of fun to be able to throw
668
00:42:50,943 --> 00:42:53,279
such a huge challenge
down in front of them and say,
669
00:42:53,362 --> 00:42:56,073
"We're gonna underwrite you
to write a lot of new software,"
670
00:42:56,156 --> 00:42:58,158
"stuff that people have
only been talking about,"
671
00:42:58,242 --> 00:42:59,910
"and you're gonna do it on this movie."
672
00:42:59,994 --> 00:43:03,956
A liquid metal man
is a big leap from a water snake.
673
00:43:04,665 --> 00:43:07,876
And we had to develop
an entirely new approach
674
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,590
because even though it's not organic,
it is supposed to embody
675
00:43:12,965 --> 00:43:14,508
the characteristics of the T-1000,
676
00:43:14,592 --> 00:43:16,719
which is actually
the actor Robert Patrick.
677
00:43:18,846 --> 00:43:20,681
It was such an exciting opportunity.
678
00:43:21,682 --> 00:43:25,894
You probably could have made The Abyss
without that pseudopod character
679
00:43:25,978 --> 00:43:27,980
and figured out a way to tell the story.
680
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:31,317
The polyalloy character
in T2 had to work, right?
681
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,068
It had to work.
682
00:43:34,862 --> 00:43:38,073
We really embraced the risk,
not over promising,
683
00:43:38,157 --> 00:43:41,827
but knowing just enough to say,
"We will get the answer months from now."
684
00:43:41,994 --> 00:43:44,872
"We don't know what it is now,
but we will find it together."
685
00:43:44,955 --> 00:43:47,291
They only had nine months,
which was the scary part
686
00:43:47,374 --> 00:43:48,917
to do these really complicated shots.
687
00:43:49,001 --> 00:43:50,794
They had to create the new technology,
688
00:43:50,878 --> 00:43:53,756
then they had to apply it
and get it done on a schedule.
689
00:43:55,174 --> 00:43:59,887
The process started with Doug Chiang,
who has to first envision that look.
690
00:44:00,679 --> 00:44:04,058
Here's what we want, go.
Go ahead and do it in 3D.
691
00:44:05,684 --> 00:44:08,103
That's where design started
to push the technology,
692
00:44:08,187 --> 00:44:11,940
because I just want to go for the
aesthetics, to come up with these things.
693
00:44:12,566 --> 00:44:15,402
Knowing that there were going
to be many computer graphics people
694
00:44:15,486 --> 00:44:16,695
to figure out how to execute.
695
00:44:17,488 --> 00:44:19,948
In this film,
we broke up into five teams.
696
00:44:20,866 --> 00:44:21,867
The one I was on,
697
00:44:21,950 --> 00:44:24,828
we had to figure out
how to build the T-1000 in data.
698
00:44:25,496 --> 00:44:27,790
So I figured,
I'll do the way nature does it.
699
00:44:27,873 --> 00:44:30,584
Start with bones, muscles, tendons,
vacuum wrap it,
700
00:44:30,668 --> 00:44:33,754
and hopefully we get something
that looks like a human.
701
00:44:36,298 --> 00:44:38,967
So we had Robert Patrick come up here.
702
00:44:39,218 --> 00:44:41,929
He had to stand in this
sort of crucifix device.
703
00:44:42,012 --> 00:44:44,348
We put this grid on his body,
704
00:44:45,182 --> 00:44:48,435
and then we shot lots of stills
to analyze his physical musculature.
705
00:44:49,978 --> 00:44:52,147
I wanted to try and mimic his walk,
706
00:44:52,231 --> 00:44:55,234
but this is pre-motion capture,
so we shot him with two.
707
00:44:55,317 --> 00:44:59,571
VistaVision division cameras synced
both from the front and from the side.
708
00:45:00,531 --> 00:45:03,659
Mark started being more assistant
visual effects supervisor.
709
00:45:03,742 --> 00:45:04,827
He was on set.
710
00:45:05,744 --> 00:45:10,082
I decided to concentrate
on the Robert Patrick form,
711
00:45:10,165 --> 00:45:12,084
because Robert is the T-1000.
712
00:45:12,167 --> 00:45:14,294
We're gonna study his body.
713
00:45:14,378 --> 00:45:15,796
We're gonna watch his movements.
714
00:45:15,879 --> 00:45:18,549
The way he walks, the way he runs,
the way he behaves.
715
00:45:19,675 --> 00:45:23,387
We're gonna capture all this stuff
to build a database of his movements.
716
00:45:24,346 --> 00:45:27,015
He had a little tiny bit of a weird gait.
717
00:45:27,099 --> 00:45:29,935
He had a little bit of a limp
that Steve caught
718
00:45:30,728 --> 00:45:32,980
and we kind of replicated it
and put it into
719
00:45:33,063 --> 00:45:35,232
the animation of that character
720
00:45:35,315 --> 00:45:37,609
when he was, you know,
in full polyalloy form.
721
00:45:51,081 --> 00:45:53,751
That's the moment.
That's the moment in history.
722
00:45:53,834 --> 00:45:59,757
We've seen the light and we went
from 16 CG shots on The Abyss to 42
723
00:46:00,215 --> 00:46:04,428
in T2, and we were in this
transitional phase
724
00:46:04,511 --> 00:46:06,638
where we're still doing stuff
of practical effects.
725
00:46:06,722 --> 00:46:11,101
While we were doing stuff with CG
and getting them to meet in the middle.
726
00:46:11,185 --> 00:46:15,939
I brought my friend Stan Winston to do
some of the effects,
727
00:46:16,023 --> 00:46:17,232
the practical gags.
728
00:46:27,785 --> 00:46:30,829
So that was our team.
729
00:46:32,039 --> 00:46:34,416
There was a lot of back and forth
to find workarounds.
730
00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:36,794
What are the best tools
to create imageries that we want?
731
00:46:36,877 --> 00:46:41,507
You are limited by technology, but then
you try to find ways to overcome that.
732
00:46:42,841 --> 00:46:45,719
There were things that popped open
on his chest and so on.
733
00:46:45,969 --> 00:46:49,807
So the popping open,
they did it as a physical gag.
734
00:46:52,851 --> 00:46:55,854
The rehealing was in Dennis' camp.
735
00:46:56,438 --> 00:47:00,067
It's kind of hard to tell where one begins
and the other ends at this point.
736
00:47:00,692 --> 00:47:02,694
We had an effect called "sauce head,"
737
00:47:02,778 --> 00:47:05,030
you know, where he gets
his head blown open, right?
738
00:47:05,906 --> 00:47:08,116
We had an incredible collaboration.
739
00:47:08,283 --> 00:47:11,203
How to divide this up
and how to get the lighting to agree
740
00:47:11,286 --> 00:47:15,249
and how to make it look like
it all lives in the same world.
741
00:47:16,542 --> 00:47:18,001
Computer graphics, you know,
742
00:47:18,085 --> 00:47:21,255
you draw your way or animate your way
or render your way out of a problem.
743
00:47:30,597 --> 00:47:33,225
Like in the case of the bars,
they have this great scene
744
00:47:33,308 --> 00:47:35,561
where the T-1000 that's supposed to walk
745
00:47:35,644 --> 00:47:39,731
through a set of static bars,
we had the actual data of the face.
746
00:47:41,358 --> 00:47:42,734
But data is stupid.
747
00:47:42,818 --> 00:47:44,778
If I have two objects
and I smash them together,
748
00:47:44,862 --> 00:47:47,447
they go right through one another
because it doesn't know.
749
00:47:48,907 --> 00:47:52,911
So you have to write a program
that understands how to make one object
750
00:47:52,995 --> 00:47:56,498
collide with the other object
the same way that nature does it.
751
00:47:58,208 --> 00:48:02,004
So when his face walks through,
the program says, "Okay."
752
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,675
When you see face A, run into bars B,
753
00:48:06,758 --> 00:48:10,345
make sure to deform and listen
to what the contour of the bar is.
754
00:48:11,388 --> 00:48:14,474
So it emulates the look of liquid
moving through the bar.
755
00:48:19,563 --> 00:48:20,814
Impossible.
756
00:48:21,732 --> 00:48:23,358
That shot is impossible.
757
00:48:23,775 --> 00:48:26,236
I still look at it and say,
"That's impossible."
758
00:48:28,447 --> 00:48:30,324
Then the gun doesn't go through,
759
00:48:31,116 --> 00:48:34,578
to remind you that it's something special.
760
00:48:36,121 --> 00:48:38,874
When Jim Cameron did
the second Terminator,
761
00:48:40,584 --> 00:48:44,171
I was so blown away by these shots,
they just stuck with me.
762
00:48:47,132 --> 00:48:50,177
The film was ludicrously ambitious,
763
00:48:50,260 --> 00:48:53,013
but the ambitious part
is part of the magic.
764
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:58,310
You have to be ambitious because you have
to be willing to do the hard work
765
00:48:58,393 --> 00:49:00,896
to show people something
they've never seen before.
766
00:49:02,481 --> 00:49:04,858
T2 was just so groundbreaking.
767
00:49:04,942 --> 00:49:10,781
At that point, our department was filled
with the best people in the business.
768
00:49:12,616 --> 00:49:18,747
It was just a matter of time before we
would break out to do something stunning.
769
00:49:27,881 --> 00:49:31,635
After Terminator had finished,
Dennis Muren brought us all out to lunch,
770
00:49:31,718 --> 00:49:34,179
and he said,
"Spielberg has come up with this film."
771
00:49:34,262 --> 00:49:37,891
It's gonna be about dinosaurs
that take over a park.
772
00:49:37,975 --> 00:49:39,893
Phil Tippett's gonna do all the dinosaurs.
773
00:49:46,650 --> 00:49:48,068
And we're just being thrown
774
00:49:48,151 --> 00:49:51,363
into the batch for whatever,
with no idea what we're gonna do.
775
00:49:51,613 --> 00:49:52,990
Mark and I right away said,
776
00:49:53,073 --> 00:49:55,409
"Why don't we build the whole thing
in computer graphics?"
777
00:49:56,576 --> 00:49:58,996
But it didn't seem like
we were ready to commit
778
00:49:59,079 --> 00:50:02,666
to a deadline for a show that big
and much more complicated
779
00:50:02,749 --> 00:50:03,792
than Terminator 2.
780
00:50:06,420 --> 00:50:08,922
It became sort of like
a personal challenge.
781
00:50:10,716 --> 00:50:12,509
Mark and I went back to our office,
782
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,679
and I started drawing it on the board.
783
00:50:17,514 --> 00:50:22,394
If you believe in something, you know,
there's nothing worse than not trying.